Tuesday, July 13, 2010

God and Objective Morality


Introduction

One of the most important concepts to be comprehended by we humans is morality. This importance derives not only from the fact that we are intelligent beings, but also from the fact that we are social beings. And although there is perhaps universal agreement on its practical value, there is substantial disagreement with respect to its theoretical nature.
For instance, one of the hallmarks of Christian thought is absolute objective morality. That is to say that there are certain moral "laws", which are unchanging with respect to situational variance and are universally applicable. This is a comforting position, since it reflects our social need for safety, security, accountability and justice. And because humans and therefore the constructs created thereby are imperfect it is desirable to hold some notion of ultimate and final justice, which is inescapable. Understandably, then, it is a common complaint of the religiously minded that if one gives up any notion of the supernatural, then one must also give up this view of morality. But this is undesirable because it leaves us with moral relativism. In Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov Ivan Karamazov laments:

"If God does not exist, then everything is permitted."

For the purposes of this post, let us forget that this is an argument from consequences and therefore fails as an argument for the existence of God. Instead, let us consider whether the accusation is even true. More specifically, it will be useful to consider the more legitimate argument from morality. The question at hand, therefore, will be: Can morality be absolute and objective in any meaningful sense if God does not exist?

The Moral Argument

One of the more common arguments employed for the existence of God is the Moral Argument. It's basic form is usually stated as follows:

(i) If God did not exist, then objective moral values and duties would not exist.

(ii) Objective moral values and duties do exist.

(iii) Therefore, God exists.
(Moreland J.P., Craig William Lane. Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview. p 495)
Again, I am going to assume that (ii) is true, but question the truth of (i).

Observe that (i) is logically equivalent to (i'): If Morality exists, then God exists. (Here I shall use Morality as an abbreviation for objective moral values and duties). So, the first premise states that the existence of God is a necessary condition for Morality. If this is false, then it must be shown that (Morality exists) and (God does not exist) is consistent and does not produce a contradiction.

In defense of (i) it is often phrased in terms of "laws" and argued that laws require a Lawgiver. One site puts the matter this way:

"There is nothing out there in the physical world that makes moral facts true.

This is because moral facts aren’t descriptive, they’re prescriptive; moral facts have the form of commands...

There are some things that can’t exist unless something else exists along with them. There can’t be something that is being carried unless there is something else that is carrying it. There can’t be something that is popular unless there are lots of people that like it.

Commands are like this; commands can’t exist without something else existing that commanded them.

The moral argument seeks to exploit this fact; If moral facts are a kind a command, the moral argument asks, then who commanded morality? "
(http://www.existence-of-god.com/moral-argument.html)

The obvious question is: Must Morality be thought of in terms of commands? It seems quite obvious that this is not necessary, since the maxim, You should not murder can always be stated instead as It is not good to murder. At this point, however, we need an understanding of the word "good". Furthermore, even if we can conclude that Morality need not inherently exist in the form of commands, this would not prove God does not exist. But remember, the objective here is to explore whether or not (i) is a true implication.

The Euthyphro Dilemma

Now, from the Christian perspective "goodness" must be identified with God's nature. The necessity of this position arises from the well known Euthyphro Dilemma, which asks:

Is something good/Moral because God commands it or does God command said something because it is good/Moral?

The dilemma comes from the fact that if the first disjunct is the case, then Morality is arbitrary and reduces to might makes right. Presumably, then, God could have commanded that, say, men shall be permitted to rape a woman from 6pm to 7pm every weekday with amnesty. Thus, since this is clearly an untenable position one might opt for the second disjunct. But should this be the case, then our work here is done, since it admits to an objective standard apart from God and then one may easily ask why God is necessary at all.

Because of this, the theist is forced to either accept one of these undesirable positions or to find a way out of the dilemma. This is precisely what most theists attempt by arguing that there is a third option. They claim that God's very nature supplies the absolute standard and that any and every command issued by God must/will be consistent with "His" immutable and necessary nature. Presumably, then, something like murder is wrong not so much because it results in a dead human (since that happens in many other ways), but because the act of murdering arises from hatred and a destruction, which are qualities that conflict with those found in God. Of course one could also argue that God values human life and so taking it "without just cause" is wrong. So, objective good is synonymous with God's nature and any value humans have is derivative in nature. That is, X has value if and only if God values X. But God values X if and only if X exemplifies qualities consistent with "His" nature. Therefore, X has value if and only if X exemplifies qualities consistent with God's nature.

Similarly, the theist must argue that Y is good/Moral if and only if Y exhibits qualities which coincide with God's nature. But does this really solve the problem? After all, how does one understand the nature of God? Any sophisticated theist will agree that this nature must be necessary, since if not, then it just so happens that God is the way "He" is and so could have been different. In other words, God's nature is accidental and one might rightly wonder how an accidental objective standard is an improvement on God arbitrarily deciding what is moral. In fact, the generally accepted definition of God as the being than which no greater can be conceived rules out this possibility unless we permit that there could be various variations on God's nature but that no one of these is "greater" than any other. But this (possibility?) is inconsequential to our investigations.

A Shot to the Foot?

So the theist concedes that there are ways of conceiving God and "His" nature which are "greater" than others, that God necessarily has the greatest possible nature. Now admittedly, we need not be able (and perhaps are not able) to fully formulate what this nature would be, but we are able to reason about certain qualities that definitely do belong to this nature. We say that this nature is perfect, since, again, it would not be appropriate to define the notion of God any other way. But if we can understand the nature of God, then we can understand morality. In going about this theory we implicitly recognize a set of values and characteristics we recognize as necessarily good and that God, should "He" exist, must possess these necessarily. But then it is really these values that are the standard and one has to wonder why they need to be made into characteristics of personal being? That is, how does evoking the existence of a personal being whose nature is characterized by these values make Morality any more real or substantiated? It seems that the theist is multiplying entities beyond necessity to account for morality in defiance of Ockham's razor.

Conclusion

Therefore, since the set of values and/or properties that describe God's nature can be understood independently of their being instantiated in a person it seems that there can indeed be Morality in the absence of God. We then recognize that if a person can exemplify these qualities, then that person will be a "good" person. Again, this does not mean that God does not exist, but it does mean that the moral argument fails as a proof. More than that, it shows that theism is not even necessarily the best way to account for Morality and so cannot be turned into a strong inductive argument or probabilistic argument.

What's the Real Issue?

Despite the inadequacies of the moral argument, it nevertheless continues to be a very persuasive argument. This is most likely due to strong psychological factors, which appeal to the strong desire for justice found in nearly all humans. It is very difficult for us to accept that some fiend could "get away with murder" or some other terrible crime and not be held accountable. This naturally leads to desire and hence posit the existence of a divine arbiter of justice whose judgment cannot be averted or escaped. And if there is no such being, then one understandably wonders what is the motivation for being good! This is a complicated issue to be sure, but a few reasons are
(1) We need others as social beings.

(2) We may be punished by our peers.

(3) We have the ability to empathize with others.

(4) Humans rightly seek what has value and being good has value.

There are certainly more reasons, but I think this is a decent list. The real issue then seems to be the potential consequences of not believing in God. But as mentioned above, this is a fallacious way to argue for the actual existence of God. At the very least we should be good because we understand what "goodness" is and we desire to bring that into existence. Should we all decide that it is not worth it, then nature will eliminate us and something else will take our place.

53 comments:

  1. I read 'The Possessed' by Dostoevsky last year and it has become one of my favorite. A character in this story, Kirillov, is one Dostoevsky's most interesting creations, one who both resembles and influenced Nietzsche. In a discussion on the existence of God he says "He does not exist, but He is. In the stone there is no pain, but in the fear of the stone is the pain. God is the pain of the fear of death. He who will conquer pain and terror will become himself a god." I see a similarity in Dostoevsky and Nietzsche in dealing with the loss of the necessary God. They seem to find both in themselves, Dostoevsky for sure, and in the coming generations a world in which a god is no longer needed, not because he is not believable, but because his message is no longer acceptable, and he has ceased to be useful. It seems there has been an inversion between God and his consequences. The moral imperatives have been discarded, no longer accepted because they are commands from god, they invert their relationship and are now used as a defense for a god. My personal concern lies beyond the coherence of objective morality, and more towards the compulsive need to make it so. Why raise the question of whether objective morality can be absolute without an absolute entity? This does not seem to be the point of contention, but whether the world needs objective morality. I realize you are probably more interested in discussing the natural connection between god and objective morality, but my contention is that absolute morality destructive and unwarranted, and that it continues to exist, as you alluded to, because it is comforting and easy. I find the question more relevant to myself, and Nietzsche is very instructive in the area, but I will defer to your response in case you are not interested in this area.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hey Ty!

    I suppose you could say that my concerns were twofold:

    (1) To critique the Moral Argument, which is very popular amongst apologists and

    (2) To show that morality (even absolute morality) is independent of any notions of a deity.

    As to whether morality is actually objective and absolute, well, I'm not sure. David Eller, a professor of anthropology, wrote an interesting article on the subject in a book I have been reading. In it he says:

    "In a word, humans - hopelessly social creatures that we are - do and must engage in the appraisal of each other's actions. Morality is one form of such appraisal. Morality is a kind of talk about behavior, a discourse or language about which behaviors we commend and which behaviors we condemn. As Kai Nielsen has said it better that just about anyone:
    'Moral language is the language we use in verbalizing a choice or a decision; it is the language we use in appraising human conduct and in giving advice about courses of action; and finally, it is the language we use in committing ourselves to a principle of action. Moral language is a practical kind of discourse that is concerned to answer the questions: 'What should be done?' or 'What attitude should be taken toward what has been done, is being done, or will be done?''
    In short, as a social process of behavioral appraisal, 'morality functions to guide conduct and alter behavior or attitudes."
    (emphasis original)

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hi QED,

    You said that "the moral argument fails as a proof." What standard of proof do you use? Mathematical proof, scientific proof, "beyond a reasonable doubt," or "preponderance of the evidence"?

    Also, I agree with you that morality (even absolute morality) is independent of any notions of a deity. The terrorists who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 did it for a deity. And there are atheists with high moral standards. Paul even says this in Romans 2:14-15. But the question is why absolute morality exits.

    ReplyDelete
  4. I would contend that "proof" always refers to a deductive, mathematical type argument. Whenever the matter is informal I usually take "argument" to be the appropriate term as an abbreviation for inductive argument. In these situations, of course, there are weak, moderate and strong arguments.

    Now, if objective morality exists, then it exists by virtue of being necessary in the same way that the laws of logic and/or mathematics are necessary.

    ReplyDelete
  5. So you are looking for mathematical proof for God, then? You said that the moral argument fails as proof.

    I agree with you that if objective morality exists, it is axiomatic like logic or mathematics. This is why God has to embody objective morality and He cannot do anything that is logically impossible like make 2 + 2 = 5.

    ReplyDelete
  6. The question is on the one hand whether a non-theistic worldview has a ground for ethical normativity, and on the other, whether God’s existence can account for it.

    I’m not sure what you mean when you imply that the argument that God’s existence is a precondition for objective morality is “an argument from consequences and therefore fails as an argument for the existence of God”. Perhaps you could explain this more clearly. Why would God’s existence being a precondition of morality be an argument from consequences? And why would this ipso facto make it fail as an argument for God’s existence?

    You said, “The question at hand, therefore, will be: Can morality be objective in any meaningful sense if God does not exist?”

    Even if you do show God’s existence fails as a necessary condition for objective morality, this does not show that the non-existence of God succeeds as a posit for *objective* morality.

    In arguing against the premise that “If Morality exists, then God exists”, the main crux of your argument is: “In going about this theory we implicitly recognize a set of values and characteristics we recognize as necessarily good and that God, should "He" exist, must possess these necessarily. But then it is really these values that are the standard…”
    I would say we recognize a set of values that appear to be objective. Then we posit that if they really are objective, God’s existence must be the ground for their objectivity. I am quite perplexed as to why you think this makes the apparent objective values a higher standard than God, thus falling prey to the second horn of Euthyphro’s dilemma.
    You continue with, “and one has to wonder why they need to be made into characteristics of personal being? That is, how does evoking the existence of a personal being whose nature is characterized by these values make Morality any more real or substantiated?”
    Because obligations and duties are personal. Objective norms are also, obviously, objective, and secondly, timeless. The classical conception of God has such attributes of authority.
    You continue with, “It seems that the theist is multiplying entities beyond necessity to account for morality in defiance of Ockham's razor.”
    I’m not sure where objective moral norms would exist without God. Perhaps some sort of Platonic realm of moral norms, but this won’t help your case in not “multiplying entities beyond necessity to account for morality in defiance of Ockham's razor”. I definitely don’t see how a materialists worldview could account for objective morality. Where would ethical *obligation* or normativity come in on such a view?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Continued...

    As evolutionary ethicist Michael Ruse says:
    "My position is that the ethical sense can be explained by Darwinian evolution—the ethical sense is an adaptation to keep us social. More than this, I argue that sometimes (and this is one of those times), when you give an account of the way something occurs and is as it is, this is also to give an explanation of its status. I think that once you see that ethics is simply an adaptation, you see that it has no justification. It just is. So in metaethics I am a nonrealist. I think ethics is an illusion put into place by our genes to keep us social.

    I distinguish normative ethics from metaethics. In normative ethics I think evolution can go a long way to explain our feelings of obligation: be just, be fair, treat others like yourself. We humans are social animals and we need these sentiments to get on. I like John Rawls’s thinking on this. On about page 500 of his Theory of Justice book, Rawls says he thinks the social contract was put in place by evolution rather than by a group of old men many years ago. Then in metaethics, I think we see that morality is an adaptation merely and hence has no justification. Having said this, I agree with the philosopher J.L Mackie (who influenced me a lot) that we feel the need to “objectify” ethics. If we did not think ethics was objective, it would collapse under cheating.

    If we knew that it was all just subjective, and we felt that, then of course we’d start to cheat. If I thought there was no real reason not to sleep with someone else’s wife and that it was just a belief system put in place to keep me from doing it, then I think the system would start to break down. And if I didn’t share these beliefs, I’d say to hell with it, I’m going to do it. So I think at some level, morality has to have some sort of, what should I say, some sort of force. Put it this way, I shouldn’t cheat, not because I can’t get away with it, or maybe I *can* get away with it, but because it is fundamentally wrong.

    We’re like dogs, social animals, and so we have morality and this part of the phenomenology of morality, how it appears to us, that it is not subjective, that we think it *is* objective…So I think ethics is essentially subjective but it appears to us as objective and this appearance, too, is an adaptation.

    Within the system, of course, rape is objectively wrong—just like three strikes and you are out in baseball. But I’m a nonrealist, so ultimately there is no objective right and wrong for me. Having said that, I *am* part of the system and cannot escape. The truth does not necessarily make you free.

    There is no ultimate truth about morality. It is an invention—an invention of the genes rather than of humans, and we cannot change games at will, as one might baseball if one went to England and played cricket. Within the system, the human moral system, it is objectively true that rape is wrong. That follows from the principles of morality and from human nature. If our females came into heat, it would not necessarily be objectively wrong to rape—in fact, I doubt we would have the concept of rape at all. So, within the system, I can justify. But I deny that human morality at the highest level—love your neighbor as yourself, etc.—is justifiable. That is why I am not deriving “is” from “ought,” in the illicit sense of justification. I am deriving it in the sense of explaining *why we have* moral sentiments, but that is a different matter.

    I think ultimately there is nothing—moral nihilism, if you wish.”
    Lastly you said that, “if this [premise] is false, then it must be shown that ([objective] Morality exists) and (God does not exist) is consistent and does not produce a contradiction.”
    For the reasons in my comment, I submit you have not shown this to be the case.
    p.s. long time no see :-)

    ReplyDelete
  8. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Oops sorry for the double post.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Hello Caleb! It has been a while. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I'm not used to people commenting on my blog, so I forget to check.

    With that said, you raise some good points, which I will now address. You wrote:

    I’m not sure what you mean when you imply that the argument that God’s existence is a precondition for objective morality is “an argument from consequences and therefore fails as an argument for the existence of God”. Perhaps you could explain this more clearly. Why would God’s existence being a precondition of morality be an argument from consequences? And why would this ipso facto make it fail as an argument for God’s existence?

    I actually was not referring to the moral argument itself as being an argument from consequences. Rather, I was commenting on the strong desire people have for objective morality. If one denies that God exists, many think that objective morality somehow goes "out the window" too. Since this is undesirable, many then conclude that God must exist.

    My statement, then, was meant to show that even if it were true that objective morality is an illusion with respect to atheism, it is fallacious to argue that God should exist because of such a consequence. Does that answer you question?

    You wrote:

    Even if you do show God’s existence fails as a necessary condition for objective morality, this does not show that the non-existence of God succeeds as a posit for *objective* morality.

    I'm actually not sure what you are saying here. What do you mean by "the non-existence of God [succeeding] as a posit for *objective* morality"?

    You wrote:


    In arguing against the premise that “If Morality exists, then God exists”, the main crux of your argument is: “In going about this theory we implicitly recognize a set of values and characteristics we recognize as necessarily good and that God, should "He" exist, must possess these necessarily. But then it is really these values that are the standard…”
    I would say we recognize a set of values that appear to be objective. Then we posit that if they really are objective, God’s existence must be the ground for their objectivity. I am quite perplexed as to why you think this makes the apparent objective values a higher standard than God, thus falling prey to the second horn of Euthyphro’s dilemma.


    Are you not begging the question? Since the very question is whether or not God's existence is needed to ground anything in order to be objective, it will not do to simply go positing that God's existence must be the ground for morality's (or anything else's) objectivity.

    If the Christian is forced to argue that God's nature is necessarily good (which I think the Christian must do), then that necessity must follow from inherent and objective properties that are already present within the attributes that must describe God (if "He" were to exist). Note, however, that this is separate from and independent of God's ontological status and this means that "His" existence is not required to explain why "His" would be nature is objectively and necessarily good.

    Note: That would be like arguing that if God did not exist, then it would be impossible to define "God" (or what "He" must be like if "He" were to exist).

    ReplyDelete
  11. You wrote:

    Because obligations and duties are personal. Objective norms are also, obviously, objective, and secondly, timeless. The classical conception of God has such attributes of authority.

    I'm not sure I understand your meaning. In what sense are obligations and duties "personal"? What I think you mean (and correct me if I am wrong) is that obligations and duties are always unto some person. I'm not sure if this is necessarily true, but even if it were, this is a matter of moral application and not foundation. Adding another "ultimate person" - i.e. God only seems to introduce one more thing to explain, namely: what grounds our obligation and duty to God? Is it an objective principle or simply because God said so?

    You wrote:

    I’m not sure where objective moral norms would exist without God. Perhaps some sort of Platonic realm of moral norms, but this won’t help your case in not “multiplying entities beyond necessity to account for morality in defiance of Ockham's razor”. I definitely don’t see how a materialists worldview could account for objective morality. Where would ethical *obligation* or normativity come in on such a view?

    I'm not sure "where" is the appropriate question. If morality is objective, then I suspect that it exists in the same manner as the laws of logic and mathematics. We might think of this as a Platonic Realm and, if so, even this seems simpler than positing that all necessary things are embodied in a necessarily personal being who is non-material and outside of time, yet still manages to causally interact with the material universe.

    ReplyDelete
  12. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  13. This presents the theist with Euthyphro’s dilemma: does morality issue from the commands of the gods, or is it purely independent of the gods (which is really a false dilemma). But it’s your assessment of the rejoining argument where you misstep a bit. It seems that you’re confusing moral ontology (the ontological foundation of morality) with moral epistemology (how we come to recognize compulsory values and duties). You ask, “After all, how does one understand the nature of God?” ... and “we can understand the nature of God, we can understand morality.” And again, “we implicitly recognize a set of values and characteristics we recognize as necessarily good...” Your answer to these epistemic questions appears to be the centerpiece of your response to the 3rd option.

    So after a decent start, you then surprisingly misunderstand the 3rd option. Saying that “he could have been different” really seems to miss the point. You then leap from this to the rather bizarre idea of an “accidental objective standard.” I have to say that this is a flimsy parody of the actual theist position. No theist is arguing for serendipity when it comes to God’s nature. If we accept that God is the greatest possible being of all possible worlds, then we can rightly dismiss these silly notions of capricious character.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Your final analysis is a return to the independent morality argument (where else does one go?). Why postulate a cause beyond morality itself when “we understand good is good, and that’s just good enough”? However, the question on the table is not “how can I discern God’s morality apart from recognizing the independent quality of that morality?” But rather, “what is the ultimate foundation for objective morality?” (hence, i, ii, and iii)

    Curiously, you then assert (and I think incorrectly) that postulating a reason for objective morality beyond morality itself somehow transgresses Ockham’s razor (??) But, this is begging the question. Ockham’s razor is a thesis about multiplying causes beyond NECESSITY. Well surely you can appreciate that if God is the greatest possible moral perfection, then the necessity stops with Him. The existence of objective moral values and duties cries out for an explanation of their ultimate foundation.

    ReplyDelete
  15. You would agree then, that for anything to be truly obligatory or prohibitive that there must be a command giver (again, God’s commands issue from his own nature)? Thus, neither the Divine Command argument, nor the independent morality argument are sufficient to explain the existence of morality. The only argument left is the nature of God himself. If God is a maximally great being, then his nature determines what is good and his commands will reflect and not controvert these moral values. This solves the dilemma of Euthyphro and addresses the fallacious notion of the existential independence of objective morality.

    So it seems to me that the third option has been addressed sufficiently. There is no good reason to think that God’s own nature could not be the good. And it does seem that if there is no God then there would be no binding moral obligations (i). And since objective morality is self-evident (ii), then there must be a God (iii). Now, again how we come to “understand” or know this morality is a separate issue.

    Moreover, we should at least mention the argument’s nearest explanatory competitor: naturalism. The two models make predictions. And the theistic model predicts the kind of universal morality that exists today. Methodological naturalism would not anticipate the existence of a morality that is truly objective. Indeed, Dawkins, Dennett, Russell, Nietzsche, Mike Ruse et. al. would agree. If we are nothing more than matter in motion, then objective morality is an illusion. Any attempt to assert a sure standard in a purely physical world is nonsense. This is why atheists who assert objective moral values cannot simply say “well, they exist! What more do you want?” Because, the very concept of these moral obligations has to be borrowed from the theistic worldview in order to be rationally affirmed. The non-theist worldview does not supply them (but in many cases assumes them).

    ReplyDelete
  16. Lastly, I have to say that we must be careful when assessing the moral argument for God that we don’t mistake it for a comprehensive maxim for theism. The moral argument(s) is a piece of the cumulative case for God’s existence. All of these evidences are inferential and all of them coalesce to batter an already fragile naturalistic view.

    ReplyDelete
  17. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Oh, and one last thing (I know I already said lastly - but I am a preacher - so you should never ever trust that ;)

    I noticed at the beginning of your post that you tethered the issue of “good” to objective moral values and duties. This is either a misunderstanding or a misrepresentation, as something can be “good” without being morally obligatory. For instance, we may agree that it is good to teach a child to ride a bike, but this is in no way equal to binding moral values or duties (e.g. Do not rape and kill the child). So the question is, what is the foundation for objective values and duties (i.e. ii)?
    Also, I noticed you began your argument by massaging moral semantics. However, the “ought” we should do is still legislated whether it is stated as a command or not. So, “Do not rape and kill the child” and “it is not morally acceptable to rape and kill the child” carry the same force, despite the tautological “slight of hand” in your statement.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Jeff

    You wrote:

    Saying that “he could have been different” really seems to miss the point. You then leap from this to the rather bizarre idea of an “accidental objective standard.” I have to say that this is a flimsy parody of the actual theist position. No theist is arguing for serendipity when it comes to God’s nature. If we accept that God is the greatest possible being of all possible worlds, then we can rightly dismiss these silly notions of capricious character.

    I think you misunderstood me. I was in no way supporting any ideas of accidental objective standards. Instead, I was highlighting that this would be a silly option, as you yourself suggest.

    Curiously, you then assert (and I think incorrectly) that postulating a reason for objective morality beyond morality itself somehow transgresses Ockham’s razor (??) But, this is begging the question. Ockham’s razor is a thesis about multiplying causes beyond NECESSITY. Well surely you can appreciate that if God is the greatest possible moral perfection, then the necessity stops with Him. The existence of objective moral values and duties cries out for an explanation of their ultimate foundation.

    No, the necessity does not stop with God because it doesn't need to go that far. If morality is objective, then moral principles are necessary in and of themselves and not because some being is needed to embody them as characteristics of its nature. In other words, "good" must be objective logically prior to its describing the character or attributes of any being, even God. Otherwise, how does God's existence explain anything? One can still wonder why God would necessarily embody one set of characteristics as opposed to some other set.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Jeff

    You wrote:

    You would agree then, that for anything to be truly obligatory or prohibitive that there must be a command giver (again, God’s commands issue from his own nature)? Thus, neither the Divine Command argument, nor the independent morality argument are sufficient to explain the existence of morality. The only argument left is the nature of God himself. If God is a maximally great being, then his nature determines what is good and his commands will reflect and not controvert these moral values. This solves the dilemma of Euthyphro and addresses the fallacious notion of the existential independence of objective morality.

    So you're saying that if God did not exist that those properties which typically go toward defining "His" character would no longer be necessarily good??? I see no reason to assume that for morality to be objective there must be a lawgiver and/or enforcer just as there is no need for a lawgiver to substantiate (or enforce) the ironically named "law" of non-contradiction.

    There is no good reason to think that God’s own nature could not be the good. And it does seem that if there is no God then there would be no binding moral obligations (i). And since objective morality is self-evident (ii), then there must be a God (iii). Now, again how we come to “understand” or know this morality is a separate issue.

    You're right, God's nature could be the Good. However, there is nothing requiring that this nature also describe a being that actually exists. Those properties (defining said nature) would be necessarily "good" independent of the ontological status of the being of which they are supposed to define.

    Now, you seem to be confusing the obligatory nature of morality with its enforcement and hence you seem to fall prey to the psychological effects of the moral argument. It is true that if there is no God then there is no perfect or ultimate way of ensuring that people act morally (or get their just recompense). But this is no different from the fact that there is no enforcer against contradicting oneself. This doesn't mean people shouldn't do it or that the law of non-contradiction is any less objective and absolute.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Jeff

    You wrote:

    Moreover, we should at least mention the argument’s nearest explanatory competitor: naturalism. The two models make predictions. And the theistic model predicts the kind of universal morality that exists today. Methodological naturalism would not anticipate the existence of a morality that is truly objective. Indeed, Dawkins, Dennett, Russell, Nietzsche, Mike Ruse et. al. would agree. If we are nothing more than matter in motion, then objective morality is an illusion. Any attempt to assert a sure standard in a purely physical world is nonsense. This is why atheists who assert objective moral values cannot simply say “well, they exist! What more do you want?” Because, the very concept of these moral obligations has to be borrowed from the theistic worldview in order to be rationally affirmed. The non-theist worldview does not supply them (but in many cases assumes them).

    No, I respectfully disagree. Morality need be no more illusory on naturalism than mathematics or logic. Morality is a way of assessing actions and/or behavior and the only thing an atheist would need to "borrow" is the set of properties that would necessarily define the character of the greatest possible being were "He" to exist.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Ok, well, thank you for taking the time to respond. I will take a few minutes to address some of your comments.
    You stated,
    **I think you misunderstood me. I was in no way supporting any ideas of accidental objective standards. Instead, I was highlighting that this would be a silly option, as you yourself suggest.**

    Right. So it’s not a part of your case and isn’t part of mine, so why bring it up, and why hitch anything at all to it?

    **No, the necessity does not stop with God because it doesn't need to go that far. If morality is objective, then moral principles are necessary in and of themselves...In other words, "good" must be objective logically prior to its describing the character or attributes of any being, even God...One can still wonder why God would necessarily embody one set of characteristics as opposed to some other set.**

    Ok, well you’ve clearly misunderstood a couple of things here. First, when we (theists) speak of “objective” we are talking about moral imperatives and not merely some abstract quality of good (so you are semantically stacking the deck there). Objective moral values and duties issue from his own nature, and are not merely “qualities” or “properties” of the universe (in some Platonic sense). So it does follow, that if objective moral values and duties exist, then God must exist. That is a logically valid inference. Secondly, saying that the “good” must exist “logically prior to its describing” God, would only be a valid in describing a less than maximal being. This, of course, is not how any theist would define God.

    **So you're saying that if God did not exist that those properties which typically go toward defining "His" character would no longer be necessarily good???

    ...And thirdly, you’ve merely reasserted that the good is (already) independent of God, yet this is the very issue in question. You ask (with incredulous intensity) if I think these “properties” would cease to be objectively good were it not for an objective standard bearer. But this question assumes that your premise is ALREADY true. And, so this all sounds a bit question begging to me. By the way, the answer is “Yes.” I am very much saying that there is no good reason to think that morally obligatory values would exist apart from God imposing them in some sense on us.

    ReplyDelete
  23. **So you're saying that if God did not exist that those properties which typically go toward defining "His" character would no longer be necessarily good???

    ...And thirdly, you’ve merely reasserted that the good is (already) independent of God, yet this is the very issue in question. You ask (with incredulous intensity) if I think these “properties” would cease to be objectively good were it not for an objective standard bearer. But this question assumes that your premise is ALREADY true. And, so this all sounds a bit question begging to me. By the way, the answer is “Yes.” I am very much saying that there is no good reason to think that morally obligatory values would exist apart from God imposing them in some sense on us.

    Fourth, since we (theists) define God as “the greatest possible being of any possible world,” then a being who stands as the very exemplar of “good” is NECESSARILY greater than a being who merely exhibits good qualities (even if that being has a flawless track record). Thus, his commands to us are both consistent with, and are a necessary expression of his own nature.

    **I see no reason to assume that for morality to be objective there must be a lawgiver and/or enforcer just as there is no need for a lawgiver to substantiate (or enforce) the ironically named "law" of non-contradiction...**
    **But this is no different from the fact that there is no enforcer against contradicting oneself. This doesn't mean people shouldn't do it or that the law of non-contradiction is any less objective and absolute.**

    Hmm. That is a curious equivocation, as a “law” such as “noncontradiction” is not a moral imperative. Noncontradiction in particular is an odd (and I would say a false ) analogy to moral duties and values because indeed the law cannot be transgressed (one can hardly quibble there). But obligatory duties can be, and often ARE flouted in favor of sinful alternatives. So this statement strikes me as having a fundamental category problem.

    ReplyDelete
  24. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  25. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  26. **You're right, God's nature could be the Good. However, there is nothing requiring that this nature also describe a being that actually exists. Those properties (defining said nature) would be necessarily "good" independent of the ontological status of the being of...y are supposed to define.
**

    Interesting. This statement shows, again, that you have not understood the theist position. We are not arguing that moral good, as an abstract quality, is the definition of God’s nature. Rather we are arguing that God’s nature is an effective prime reality and thus compulsory values and duties cannot exist independently of him because they flow necessarily from him.

    **It is true that if there is no God then there is no perfect or ultimate way of ensuring that people act morally (or get their just recompense).**

    Really? then what are we arguing about? I’m inclined to agree and am beginning to sense that you are experiencing a real existential crisis with this subject.

    ReplyDelete
  27. **Morality is a way of assessing actions and/or behavior and the only thing an atheist would need to "borrow" is the set of properties that would necessarily define the character of the greatest possible being were "He" to exist.**

    Right, they do indeed “borrow” these from a distinctly theistic worldview (though they refuse to adopt the worldview itself). Because on naturalism, we should have no concern whatsoever for value, meaning, purpose, or truth. These are all furnished by a theistic conceptual framework. A purely natural, undirected process would only produce a creature with a genetic predilection for survival (not meaning). And so the very dilemma of whether moral obligations have an ultimate foundation or not would never have surfaced in such a creature - were “He” to exist :)

    ReplyDelete
  28. **No, I respectfully disagree. Morality need be no more illusory on naturalism than mathematics or logic.**

    Well, beyond the fact that this statement suffers from the same taxonomical misstep as the noncontradiction example, I must say that I am shocked that you bring up math and logic - because on naturalism, math and logic cannot be rationally affirmed (I assume by this statement that you are not a fictionalist). That is to say, naturalism presupposes that the material world is all that really exists, and that the scientific method is the only valid mode of inquiry. So abstract realities that are not accessible to the scientific method (according to naturalism) are off limits in the empirical sciences. Yet on naturalism, science is off limits because it is permeated with the very unprovable assumptions it needs to conduct itself. Moreover, we have epistemic warrant to believe in other minds (Plantinga), warrant to assume our cognitive faculties are functioning properly (though we have no evidence that this is so), and we are perfectly justified in the belief that our sense of moral obligation to our fellow man is externally imposed on us. But we have no epistemological warrant for these assumptions on naturalism (I have been reluctantly dragged into the epistemological issue - But of course epistemology is the only game in town for the naturalist who by “nature” cannot entertain 2nd order philosophical concerns e.g. metaphysical ontology). Methodological naturalism cannot cross examine metaphysical realities - yet borrows and benefits from these realties with every turn of the spate. Most scientists ignore this dialectical tension and just go about their business.
    This seems to me to be a fundamental lacuna for the view.
    It is analogous to writing volumes of pabulum on how silly of notion “Intelligent Design” is (as Dawkins, Dennet, et. al. have done), and then training young scientists to become brilliant design engineers so that they can practice disciplined inquiry. But I digress.

    ReplyDelete
  29. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Thank you for allowing me to post here. I do appreciate it.

    I also am looking forward to addressing some of your other posts, as I think I could help you with some of your hermeneutical missteps.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Oh, and sorry for all the deletions, but the site was double posting all my posts.
    Shoot me your number and let's get coffee sometime.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Jeff

    You wrote:

    "...when we (theists) speak of “objective” we are talking about moral imperatives and not merely some abstract quality of good (so you are semantically stacking the deck there). Objective moral values and duties issue from his own nature, and are not merely “qualities” or “properties” of the universe (in some Platonic sense). So it does follow, that if objective moral values and duties exist, then God must exist. That is a logically valid inference."

    Well, if you are going to define "objective" as "moral imperative", then the moral argument is circular, since "imperative" entails the notion of commanding, which does require someone to issue the command. You therefore have the following argument:

    (i) If objective (i.e. imperative) Morality exists, then God exists.

    (ii) Objective (i.e. imperative) Morality does exist.

    (iii) Therefore, God exists.

    But notice that in (ii), claiming that imperative Morality exists is just another way of saying that God exists as the issuer of the imperative.

    So, either (i) is equivocating on "objective" or it is a tautology and (ii) merely asserts that God exists.

    "Hmm. That is a curious equivocation, as a “law” such as “noncontradiction” is not a moral imperative. Noncontradiction in particular is an odd (and I would say a false ) analogy to moral duties and values because indeed the law cannot be transgressed (one can hardly quibble there). But obligatory duties can be, and often ARE flouted in favor of sinful alternatives. So this statement strikes me as having a fundamental category problem."

    I think it is a fine analogy. Why? Because the law of non-contradiction can be transgressed! Are you suggesting that no one ever contradicts themselves? That would be a transgression of the law of non-contradiction, which is analogues to flouting moral laws. But perhaps you meant that non-contradiction cannot meaningfully be denied (to which I would agree), but that morality can? In this case, I don't see the relevance of this observation as it has nothing to do with the point I was making.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Jeff

    You wrote:

    "Rather we are arguing that God’s nature is an effective prime reality and thus compulsory values and duties cannot exist independently of him because they flow necessarily from him."

    This sentence seems completely incoherent. What do you mean by "flow necessarily from him"? What sort of "existence" is supposed to be issued to Morality on account of God's existence? In other words, what sort of "existence" could Morality have, but abstract existence?

    "Because on naturalism, we should have no concern whatsoever for value, meaning, purpose, or truth. These are all furnished by a theistic conceptual framework. A purely natural, undirected process would only produce a creature with a genetic predilection for survival (not meaning). And so the very dilemma of whether moral obligations have an ultimate foundation or not would never have surfaced in such a creature - were “He” to exist :) "

    I think you are begging the question here. Why should we have no concern for the things listed above on naturalism? How does the nature of our coming into existence determine what we "should" value as existing beings?

    "because on naturalism, math and logic cannot be rationally affirmed..."

    This is a rather unwarranted assumption and I will simply respond with, "false".

    "That is to say, naturalism presupposes that the material world is all that really exists, and that the scientific method is the only valid mode of inquiry. So abstract realities that are not accessible to the scientific method (according to naturalism) are off limits in the empirical sciences."

    This isn't accurate. Materialism presupposes that only the material world exists, but a naturalist need not deny the reality of abstract entities or reality. A naturalist would simply say that none of these things are "supernatural" in the theistic sense.

    "...we are perfectly justified in the belief that our sense of moral obligation to our fellow man is externally imposed on us. But we have no epistemological warrant for these assumptions on naturalism ..."

    Well if you mean that on naturalism we are not justified in supposing that Morality is issued from an external, personal agent, then... yeah, okay, but this was never in question.

    "I also am looking forward to addressing some of your other posts, as I think I could help you with some of your hermeneutical missteps."

    Gee... how thoughtful;)

    ReplyDelete
  34. Jeff: "Shoot me your number and let's get coffee sometime."

    Do you live in Spokane or Post Falls?

    ReplyDelete
  35. As a side note, your position on this matter seems to imply that God is only definable provided "He" exists. Would you agree to this?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Let me kick around a few more things that I think will help you to sharpen your ideas.

    You stated, "I think it is a fine analogy. Why? Because the law of non-contradiction can be transgressed!"

    Umm, I think you’re confused here. Noncontradiction is not the superficial practice of merely “contradicting oneself” But it would be the actual violation (as you correctly say, “in a meaningful way”) of an incontrovertible reality. So, though I may get up tomorrow and claim to be a pig and begin acting like one - the fact is that I am still a person and not a pig. However, I may well get up tomorrow and transgress the “goodness” of God (represented to me in the form of moral duties) and introduce REAL evil into the cosmos. Thus, moral laws can be broken (in a truly meaningful way) while noncontradiction cannot really be transgressed - otherwise, the law would be literally self-refuting.

    This, as I pointed out, is a taxonomical mistake, as these are two things that do not belong in the same category.

    ReplyDelete
  37. cont...

    Now let’s talk specifically about your tweaking of the moral argument. In your original post, you stated the theist position, and then began to euphemize or massage moral semantics. Why “should” we think that these objective values are also “commands” to us (let’s ignore that the very question itself borrows from moral command semantics). Why “shouldn’t” we conclude that God is simply not necessary for us to apprehend our moral obligations toward each other?
    Now, I pointed out that this is a tautological mistep precisely because you allowed that these “objective” values are essentially an “ought from an is.” But you refused to call them “commands.” Sooo, apparently we can “know” that they are independent of human will or opinion, and that they actually do constitute our moral obligations to each other - but somehow - they’re not really “commands” (??). I agree with Craig on this one who stated, "By objective values and duties, one means values and duties that are valid and binding independent of human opinion. A good many atheists and theists alike concur with premise"

    ReplyDelete
  38. So your original post attempted to alter the DNA of the actual theist argument. So let me restate it:

    (i) If objective moral values AND duties do not exist, then God does not exist.
    (ii) objective moral values AND duties do exist…
    (iii) therefore, God exists

    Now, since we do apprehend a realm of moral values which constitute our duties to one another, it seems like a logically valid inference to say that in the absence of God, we have no good reason to think that moral imperatives would exist in any real sense. Your position simply has to be nothing more than a reciprocal altruism. On naturalism, our sense of moral obligation is merely the result of a kind of fitness optimization of the species and any notion of “binding moral facts” is merely illusory.

    ReplyDelete
  39. You stated,
    "This sentence seems completely incoherent. What do you mean by "flow necessarily from him"?

    Well thanks :) But the statement is fundamentally intelligible. If God exists and is A. the maximally greatest being of any possible world, then he is necessarily greater than B. a being who merely “exhibits” moral qualities, even if that being (B) has a perfect resume of moral behavior. So our moral duties issue from him because his own nature is the locus for moral good.

    ReplyDelete
  40. you said,

    "I think you are begging the question here. Why should we have no concern for the things listed above on naturalism?"

    No I’m not begging the question. The reason why a scientific naturalist should have no concern for ultimate meaning is because on naturalism, we are only geared for survival not meaning. If it is true that our lives have no ultimate meaning (which on naturalism they obviously do not - as we are destined to die in the ultimate heat death of the universe in extinction), then as C.S. Lewis stated, “we should never have discovered that it has no meaning.” If our cognitive faculties are hard wired for mere fitness maximization, then “truth” is a meaningless word. Since the meta-narrative of humanity is a purely natural and undirected process, then the naturalist is by “nature” a moral skeptic. Moral skepticism is inherent to his position. So is any search for ultimate meaning or truth. So though you may perceive yourself as a person who has the “truth” on these issues, and that your life and work has some kind of meaning, those are mere conventions on a purely naturalistic view.

    ReplyDelete
  41. I stated, "because on naturalism, math and logic cannot be rationally affirmed..."

To which you responded, This is a rather unwarranted assumption and I will simply respond with, "false".

    Fine. The statement is EASILY falsifiable: show me a scientific journal article that establishes the existence of math, logic, values and duties, or aesthetic judgements (through the scientific method). Or show a scientific study that establishes that other minds actually do exist, that our rational faculties are trustworthy, or that the past wasn’t created 5 min. ago with the appearance of age. We are warranted for assuming all these are true, but none of these assertions are provable by scientific naturalism. But one cannot even conduct science without these critical assumptions. This is why naturalism is self-evidently false because it doesn’t supply its own framework and is constantly borrowing from a metaphysical point of view.

    ReplyDelete
  42. You stated, "This isn't accurate. Materialism presupposes that only the material world exists, but a naturalist need not deny the reality of abstract entities or reality. A naturalist would simply say that none of these things are "supernatural" in the theistic sense."

    Okay, now this is truly an incoherent position. Let me explain.
    Though it is true that there are a variety of viewpoints on naturalism (including ontological, methodological and philosophical naturalism…)
    What most naturalists mean by the term is a commitment to physicalism. The “new atheists” such as Dawkins, Dennett, Atkins, and Hitchens are all on record as being committed materialists. Dawkins and Dennett in particular are adamant on this point. **It is simply incoherent to claim to be a naturalist, and at the same time to claim that there are “extra-natural” entities which exist non-contingently (??? - C’mon)**

    In the “God Delusion” for example, Dawkins states his definition thus: “Naturalism: What most atheists do believe is that although there is only one kind of stuff in the universe and it is physical, out of this stuff comes minds, beauty, emotions, moral values - in short the full gamut of phenomena that gives richness to human life.”

    ReplyDelete
  43. Now, Armstrong,and Sellars agree that this sort of “global” naturalism denies sets, numbers, propositions etc. But even those who accept or ignore abstract entities (e.g. Poland and McGinn) still demand that the spatio-temporal universe consists only of entities which are accessible by the hard sciences.

    So whether it is directly physical or “emerges” from the physical - there is no extra-natural phenomena, on naturalism. This would be a self-contradictory position.

    By the way, I have watched every single debate conducted by Craig, Moreland, Myers et.al. and their opponents at various universities, and I have never seen anyone challenge the commonly held view that naturalism is the commitment that the spatio-temporal universe (studied by the empirical sciences) is all that there is, either being physical or depending necessarily on the physical for its emergence and existence).

    ReplyDelete
  44. On that note, let’s say then that your position is true, and there are these non-contingent extra-natural entities. Then this leaves you with the same net dilemma.
    So however you may want to semantically tweak it, you believe that either everything can be explained through the sciences, or that science is inherently limited to only the physical world, and thus cannot a priori (or a posteriori) rule out metaphysical or extra-physical entities. Thus, science can only test for the effects of the supernatural, but cannot by definition test for the metaphysical itself. This inherent limitation demands either that A. The natural is all there is, or B. There are extra-physical entities that cannot be accounted for through empirical methodology.

    So, now I’m really confused. Earlier you questioned my assertion that naturalism cannot supply its own assumptions, now you seem to be agreeing that there are indeed metaphysical realities that cannot be accounted for by mere naturalistic phenomena. So which is it?
    On that note, it's dinner time.
    Blessings

    ReplyDelete
  45. Jeff

    You wrote:

    Umm, I think you’re confused here. Noncontradiction is not the superficial practice of merely “contradicting oneself” But it would be the actual violation (as you correctly say, “in a meaningful way”) of an incontrovertible reality. So, though I may get up tomorrow and claim to be a pig and begin acting like one - the fact is that I am still a person and not a pig. However, I may well get up tomorrow and transgress the “goodness” of God (represented to me in the form of moral duties) and introduce REAL evil into the cosmos. Thus, moral laws can be broken (in a truly meaningful way) while noncontradiction cannot really be transgressed - otherwise, the law would be literally self-refuting.

    This, as I pointed out, is a taxonomical mistake, as these are two things that do not belong in the same category.


    And I think you are missing the point of the analogy. I am aware that the law of noncontradiction, itself, is not about the practice of contradicting one's self. I believe that you are equivocating on the meaning of "transgress". You seem to be taking this to mean "violate". But laws cannot be violated by definition. Thus, even a moral law cannot be violated in the sense that if murder is wrong, then one cannot violate that law by committing a murder that is good or right.

    So, a moral "law" is meant to "measure" or evaluate actions. If someone commits an immoral act the moral "law" evaluates it as bad just as if someone contradicts themselves, noncontradiction says that such a thing is false.

    Furthermore, there is no such thing as introducing "real" evil into the cosmos. Evil is not a thing which somehow obtains substance upon committing an immoral action.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Jeff -

    You wrote:

    Sooo, apparently we can “know” that they are independent of human will or opinion, and that they actually do constitute our moral obligations to each other - but somehow - they’re not really “commands” (??).

    They are not "commands" in the sense that they must be issued from some metaphysical being.

    ReplyDelete
  47. you wrote:

    Now, since we do apprehend a realm of moral values which constitute our duties to one another, it seems like a logically valid inference to say that in the absence of God, we have no good reason to think that moral imperatives would exist in any real sense. Your position simply has to be nothing more than a reciprocal altruism. On naturalism, our sense of moral obligation is merely the result of a kind of fitness optimization of the species and any notion of “binding moral facts” is merely illusory.

    (A) How do you know that we really do apprehend any sort of binding moral obligations? And (B) I don't think it is a valid inference to suggest that objective evaluations of behavior don't exist if God doesn't exist.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "illusory" and it is completely irrelevant to give recourse to how we developed "our sense of moral obligation".

    ReplyDelete
  48. You wrote:

    Well thanks :) But the statement is fundamentally intelligible. If God exists and is A. the maximally greatest being of any possible world, then he is necessarily greater than B. a being who merely “exhibits” moral qualities, even if that being (B) has a perfect resume of moral behavior. So our moral duties issue from him because his own nature is the locus for moral good.

    Why should A be necessarily greater than B? You are begging the question by merely assuming that the greatest possible being's nature is the ground for moral goodness. This is the very thing in question. More specifically, you seem to be founding morality upon the ontological status of the greatest possible being (if there is such a thing) instead of the qualities and concepts that would make such a being the greatest. But if these qualities determine what the greatest possible being would have to be, then what permits you to further deduce that such qualities must also define a personal being that actually exists?

    ReplyDelete
  49. You wrote:

    No I’m not begging the question. The reason why a scientific naturalist should have no concern for ultimate meaning is because on naturalism, we are only geared for survival not meaning.

    Not true. Obviously we are geared toward finding meaning, so you cannot assume that on naturalism we would only be geared toward survival. Not only that, but you are committing something of a genetic type fallacy. All that matters is what we are, not necessarily how we got to what we are. You cannot assume that natural processes couldn't produce meaning seeking beings. I see no problem in a system becoming complex enough that it becomes self-aware and therefore seeking of meaning.


    If it is true that our lives have no ultimate meaning (which on naturalism they obviously do not - as we are destined to die in the ultimate heat death of the universe in extinction), then as C.S. Lewis stated, “we should never have discovered that it has no meaning.” If our cognitive faculties are hard wired for mere fitness maximization, then “truth” is a meaningless word. Since the meta-narrative of humanity is a purely natural and undirected process, then the naturalist is by “nature” a moral skeptic. Moral skepticism is inherent to his position. So is any search for ultimate meaning or truth. So though you may perceive yourself as a person who has the “truth” on these issues, and that your life and work has some kind of meaning, those are mere conventions on a purely naturalistic view.

    Again, you cannot assume that nature couldn't produce beings capable of discovering truth. I see nothing but an opinion here.

    ReplyDelete
  50. I'll deal with you other points later... this is becoming somewhat tedious. Perhaps you could pick one thing to focus on, since as of right now, the conversation is being spread a bit thin.

    ReplyDelete
  51. And for the record, this isn't the most interesting topic to me. I'm actually not committed to there being objective moral realities, I just don't think the actual existence of God is necessary for such an idea to be coherent. Whether morality is objective or not... I could care less. What matters is that it is "objective" to us within the system of morality we create as social beings.

    ReplyDelete
  52. You stated,
    "And for the record, this isn't the most interesting topic to me. I'm actually not committed to there being objective moral realities, I just don't think the actual existence of God is necessary for such an idea to be coherent. Whether morality is objective or not... I could care less. What matters is that it is "objective" to us within the system of morality we create as social beings."

    I agree that this is fun to kick around, but I have to say there are other more interesting topics than this.
    Have not had time to respond lately due to my schedule and my latest doctoral project. I should have some time over the Christmas break. Maybe we can agree to disagree and start on a new topic.
    Thanks for taking the time to read my comments.

    Jeff

    ReplyDelete
  53. Hi QED,

    I hope you're doing well!

    I wanted to apologize to you for seeming impatient during our last conversation on AC. I was just frustrated with AC during that time because I realized that people tend to become more firmly entrenched in their positions during debates like that.

    Anyway, I did not want you to take it personally. I have very much enjoyed our discussions and appreciate your critical thinking.

    ReplyDelete